GenGuy
Hey guys, have a 150k unit using this 600A switch.

The generator will transfer to generator coil at utility loss, but will not supply power to the building. After removing power and looking to see if there were any type of binding in the mechanism (none) it transferred properly and continued too (about 15 times) up until about 2 weeks later.

Relay seems to be fine considering it works perfect every time I am there. I also did not see any loose wiring after inspection.

Now call me crazy, Anthony at Generac did. But I saw a difference when the generator would transfer and send power inside, and when it would transfer and wouldn't send power inside. It seemed as if it made 2 separate actions when it would transfer correctly. As if it energized gen coil, transfer and something inside that mechanism would flip backwards to make some kind of final connection.

When it didnt work, it would energize, suck down, but the part that I said would "flip backwards when it worked" wouldnt move.

Ryan
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BrentB
There are two coils. One is a trip coil and the other is a select coil. The switches to the neutral position, then the select coil switches to generator power to re-energize the trip coil again. Did you check generator voltage during one of the failures?
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Peddler
I think the select coil or shift coil only actuates when it is going one direction. In other words I think the shift coil has to energize when it is going back to utility but not when going to emergency. I would have to look but I may be backwards on which way the select coil energizes but I am sure it only does it going one just direction. Just to be sure is this an Nexis panel generator and a RTS style switch or is it an H panel unit with an HTS or GTS switch? Peddler
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BrentB
Peddler;33821 wrote:
I think the select coil or shift coil only actuates when it is going one direction. In other words I think the shift coil has to energize when it is going back to utility but not when going to emergency. I would have to look but I may be backwards on which way the select coil energizes but I am sure it only does it going one just direction. Just to be sure is this an Nexis panel generator and a RTS style switch or is it an H panel unit with an HTS or GTS switch? Peddler


W style contractors need to mechanically trip out of a given position. When the contactor is in the utility position, the TR relay energizes to allow generator voltage to the trip coil to mechanicly trip the contactor to the neutral position. Generator voltage is then allowed to the select coil. If the select coil is not energized by gen power, it cannot transfer to standby power!
Page 166 commercial training study guide.
Just sent another tech to advance to commercial last week! Yes that was a homework question, and why I knew where to look so fast!
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GenGuy
Im sorry its taken me so long to respond guys. Work has been nuts!

It is a nexus panel with an RTS switch.

Bret, what you are explaining sounds exactly like what it is doing, however, I feel like we checked gen power the first time it happened (when it failed) and it had power there at the TS. What you are saying is making sense, but I cant put it together in my brain.

Is there another book that I could get that explains these TS like the Air Cooled book explains the ATS with the colored pictures and a different page for each different move it makes? Those pictures helped me A TON with those. This is only the second time I have even opened the door on an RTS and the first time was an easy one. Thanks guys!
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Peddler
There are three coils in a 600; a large transfer coil a trip coil and a shift coil. Going to emergency the trip coil releases the contacts to neutral, then the shift coil moves the shift lever, then the large transfer coil pulls the contacts closed on the emergency side. Going back to utility the shift coil isn't used only the trip coil and the transfer coil. There are limit switches and micro switches that need to be operating correctly for the sequence to be carried out. There is a test procedure for these type switches that Tech support can email you which help isolate the problem. I have a copy but it doesn't have a part number on it so you will have to ask. Good Luck, Peddler
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GenGuy
Peddler;33930 wrote:
There are three coils in a 600; a large transfer coil a trip coil and a shift coil. Going to emergency the trip coil releases the contacts to neutral, then the shift coil moves the shift lever, then the large transfer coil pulls the contacts closed on the emergency side. Going back to utility the shift coil isn't used only the trip coil and the transfer coil. There are limit switches and micro switches that need to be operating correctly for the sequence to be carried out. There is a test procedure for these type switches that Tech support can email you which help isolate the problem. I have a copy but it doesn't have a part number on it so you will have to ask. Good Luck, Peddler


Between the pictures and info I gathered last night and that explanation, I got it. Thanks a lot!!

So it's either the shift coil or the transfer coil not working. I'll call them and see if I can get a manual. I found one on Genservice but it doesn't explain it very deep.
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Peddler
The test guide that I have is for ohming out the different circuits, coils and micro switches. The problem occurs of course when it is an intermittent problem. Good Luck, Peddler
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John R
Peddler;33944 wrote:
The test guide that I have is for ohming out the different circuits, coils and micro switches. [B][I]The problem occurs of course when it is an [U]intermittent problem.[/U][/I][/B] Good Luck, Peddler


These are the worst problems to chase down.
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GenGuy
I'd like to get ahold of that manual.

Ok, so I got ahold of a colored (somewhat) schematic. When it gets stuck, I am getting 99 volts across B1/2 and 30 across A1/2. When it works, I am getting zero across A and 240 across B as I should. I swapped out the TR in case it was somehow slightly hanging up and not allowing the proper voltages through to no avail. I feel like the only other thing really left is a faulty rectifier back feeding on A1/2. There were also some slight discoloration in one of the components on the rectifier. However, I have learn the hard way not to go by colors on a board.
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Peddler
Gen Guy, Are you a Generac certified Tech? If so the book you want to ask for is entitled " Generac Power Systems, Inc" "W", "WN" & "CTTS" Style Transfer Switch Trouble shooting guide. If you aren't a certified tech let me know and I will try to figure something out. The forum does not want us sharing documents for a bunch of good reasons. If you are the document is about 20-30 pages and tech support will send it to you as an attachment. Now let me ask you this. The very first action either direction of the switch is for the trip coil to energize and trip the switch to neutral. Do you believe this is happening every time? If it is then I don't think it is the bridge rectifier itself causing the problem because all coils use the same bridge for DC voltage. I have had trouble with a couple 400 amp switches, which don't have the shift or trip coils, in both cases I had to dismantle the switch and replace the internal limit switches even though they look perfectly good when I examined them afterward. In both cases this solved my problems. Having said that the document takes you step by step through a testing process that should tell you what you have to do. You don't want to have to get into the internals of that switch unless you have to. Good Luck, Peddler
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Peddler
Gen Guy is this an RTS switch or a GTS switch? If it is a GTS switch there is a "Time Delay Neutral" option which could be causing the switch to hold in neutral for an extended amount of time or if not functioning correctly, indefinitely. This would add an element to the testing. Peddler
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GenGuy
I have been trying to comment for days thinking the site was down. Guess it dont like long posts..


Yes, it is an RTS and yes I'm certified. I have been looking at GenService Liquid Cooled Post 1986 Diag book, support kept referring me back to air cooled book saying they were the same thing.

You were right about rectifier. One thing I did notice was about three times during testing I saw that the select coil was not actuating, however, this didn't fix the problem when it did actuate the other 50 times. It looked to me as if every time I did the tests (other than those 3) all coils actuated at some point both when power was turned off and back on.
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GenGuy
I am getting 120 across all terminals w utility on. However I am only getting 60 volts across B1 and AT1 when I'm suppose to be getting gen voltage.

But how do I get gen voltage at B1 when it originates from customer load? Goes from lug, through E1 wire, to fuse, through E1A to transfer relay (accidentally disconnected this during testing and it would actuate select coil), through 205 (when energized) into B1 terminal. Then it goes 2 different places 1) through energized relay up to rectifier board. 2) Hops over to AT1 terminal, goes through limit switch up to rectifier board.

Thanks Peddler!

*Id love to have that book if you have a way to get it to me. Is it on GenService? I also have drop box. Thx
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Peddler
GenGuy, I sent you a private message, respond and I'll get you the document.
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Namvet34
GenGuy;34085 wrote:
I have been trying to comment for days thinking the site was down. Guess it dont like long posts..



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GenGuy,

You said that you have been trying to comment for days thinking the site was down.
When you’re trying to access the site, pay close attention to the site address.

If the address begins with the words “zillerstore.com” you should always be able to enter the site and navigate to the particular thread that you’re trying to reach. However, sometimes the address for a thread, especially an older thread, may start with the words “zillerelectric.com”. If you attempt to login when the address begins with “zillerelectric.com” your chances of accessing the thread is hit or miss. Sometimes it will work but often times it will not. Simply change the beginning of the address from zillerelectric.com” to “zillerstore.com” (in addition to the rest of the thread address) and you should be able to get in every time.

I have no way of knowing if this was the particular reason that you couldn’t post to the site, but it’s a possibility and it’s something to keep in mind for the future. The length of your post shouldn’t be an issue.

Best regards,

Gene

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UPS
GenGuy;34085 wrote:
I have been trying to comment for days thinking the site was down. Guess it dont like long posts..



Were you getting a message like these: "Internal Server Error" or "Error 500"?
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GenGuy
UPS;34102 wrote:
Were you getting a message like these: "Internal Server Error" or "Error 500"?


Yes I was, on the Ipad and the Desktop. I didnt notice the address though. However, when I shortened my message, it worked first time. Odd.

Also tried sending an email to the address it showed me when I got the error and it kicked it back as well.
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Namvet34
GenGuy;34139 wrote:
.... when I shortened my message, it worked first time. Odd.


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GenGuy,

If you’re working on your desktop and want to submit a message to the forum, often times you’ll get ‘timed out’ before you complete your message, especially if you’re trying to submit a long message. In those instances, you’ll have to log back in to the forum site in order to post your message. Occasionally, I’ve had it happen that when I get timed out, I also lose the content of the message I was preparing to submit. That being the case, this is what I now do when I post a message.

I’ll open MS Word and write my entire message using Word (or any other word processing program). After I’ve completed it, I’ll log in to the forum. I’ll then copy the message from Word and then paste it into the text field. This prevents me from ever getting timed out.

As I mentioned previously, the length of your message should not be an issue. The time that you’re logged in prior to being timed out, [B]IS[/B] an issue.

Best regards,

Gene

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UPS
GenGuy;34139 wrote:
Yes I was, on the Ipad and the Desktop. I didnt notice the address though. However, when I shortened my message, it worked first time. Odd.

Also tried sending an email to the address it showed me when I got the error and it kicked it back as well.


That appears to be a bug in vBulletin or on the hosting server. A month back, I had that happen, and after trying the same post several times, my IP was blocked by whatever intrusion detection is running. I can connect via several other IP's and those still worked. Slightly editing that post without noticeably changing the length allowed it to post OK. It may be a particular combination of characters, and not the length.
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GenGuy
5 trips later and Peddlers manual I figured it out. They had one leg of the coils hooked up to the customer load side from the factory when it should have been hooked to the generator side. What is crazy is after I posted this and read that I needed generator power, from the 2nd trip/phone call to the last i specifically ask them about it. They kept telling me "it's worked before so we know the wiring is right". I guess they are people just like me right?

Thanks a ton for the help guys. I have been trying to get on and post but i haven't been able to get to the site, must be something funky going on w my IPad.
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Peddler
Gen Guy you don't have a SN on that switch by any chance, I would like to study the schematic a little and you can't get switches on Genservice without a SN. Thanks, Peddler
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BrentB
GenGuy;34642 wrote:
5 trips later and Peddlers manual I figured it out. They had one leg of the coils hooked up to the customer load side from the factory when it should have been hooked to the generator side. What is crazy is after I posted this and read that I needed generator power, from the 2nd trip/phone call to the last i specifically ask them about it. They kept telling me "it's worked before so we know the wiring is right". I guess they are people just like me right?

Thanks a ton for the help guys. I have been trying to get on and post but i haven't been able to get to the site, must be something funky going on w my IPad.


I feel your pain! Somehow it worked before it left the factory! Yet here I am!
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GenGuy
I haven't been to the shop in a few weeks, stopped by and pulled the file just for you! Lol

It's 7018234.
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Peddler
Thanks for that! Peddler
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