glock19
Just finishing up an install on a 22kw model 7043. The generator installation guide states that there is no requirement for neutral to be bonded to ground at the generator if it is being used as a backup source to utility supplied service.

What about the bonding jumper at the transfer switch? It is sent from the factory with this jumper connected between the neutral bus bar and the ground bus bar. I assume it should be installed that way?

If so, is there any need to run a separate ground between the utility meter and the transfer switch? Seems redundant since the neutral and the ground are connected together in the meter box.
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Cobranut
I believe code requires neutral and ground to be bonded at ONE POINT only.
Normally, that is at the service disconnect enclosure.
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Ziller Tech
glock19;51166 wrote:
Just finishing up an install on a 22kw model 7043. The generator installation guide states that there is no requirement for neutral to be bonded to ground at the generator if it is being used as a backup source to utility supplied service.

What about the bonding jumper at the transfer switch? It is sent from the factory with this jumper connected between the neutral bus bar and the ground bus bar. I assume it should be installed that way?

If so, is there any need to run a separate ground between the utility meter and the transfer switch? Seems redundant since the neutral and the ground are connected together in the meter box.


That is a service rated transfer switch you are talking about so that bond is normal since the breaker is now the first means of disconnect. The grounding electrodes should also come to that new switch and any grounds and neutrals after the switch are required to be separated (since everything else is now a sub-panel of the switch), including the bonding jumper in the old main panel.

I would [I]HIGHLY[/I] recommend consulting with a licensed electrician to make sure that the installation meets all of the local code requirements for your area. :)
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BMerrill
glock19;51166 wrote:
Just finishing up an install on a 22kw model 7043.
If so, is there any need to run a separate ground between the utility meter and the transfer switch? Seems redundant since the [B]neutral and the ground are connected together in the meter box[/B].


Interesting question. As Chris stated above, you should consult with the AHJ, a licensed electrician, and the utility company.

Why did I add the utility company?

Some utility companies require the ground to grounded conductor (neutral) connection to be made in the meter base. This maybe your case since you stated the [U]neutral and the ground are connected together in the meter base[/U]. This is not typical and is usually done in the main service equipment disconnect panel. It is very crucial to make sure the ground to grounded conductor (neutral) connection is made at one location and one location only.


Have you laid eyes on the ground to neutral bonding in the meter base?

Interesting article on bonding [url]http://www.adamselectric.coop/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Grounding-Bonding.pdf[/url]
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ceb58
BMerrill;51169 wrote:
Interesting question. As Chris stated above, you should consult with the AHJ, a licensed electrician, and the utility company.

Why did I add the utility company?

Some utility companies require the ground to grounded conductor (neutral) connection to be made in the meter base. This maybe your case since you stated the [U]neutral and the ground are connected together in the meter base[/U]. This is not typical and is usually done in the main service equipment disconnect panel. It is very crucial to make sure the ground to grounded conductor (neutral) connection is made at one location and one location only.


Have you laid eyes on the ground to neutral bonding in the meter base?

Interesting article on bonding [url]http://www.adamselectric.coop/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Grounding-Bonding.pdf[/url]


The neutral ground connection must be made AT or BEFORE the first disconnecting means. I have never ran across a utility that required the bond in the meter but they did not discourage it. There are some utilities in other states that forbid the bond in the meter base. Their reasoning is if there were a problem the seal would be cut and meter removed. Something they don't want done. Some utility's supply the meter base and they don't want anyone messing with their equipment.
I have seen the grounding electrode conductor ran up the wall and bonded to the neutral at the weather head. That was done when copper was cheap
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glock19
BMerrill;51169 wrote:



Have you laid eyes on the ground to neutral bonding in the meter base?

Interesting article on bonding [url]http://www.adamselectric.coop/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Grounding-Bonding.pdf[/url]


Yes...... the configuration is that the utility company's neutral terminates to a terminal lug in the meter base. From this same terminal lug the neutral wire to the breaker panel (now to the transfer switch) originates. The wire from the ground rod adjacent to the meter base is also physically connected to this same neutral terminal lug.

So, with the above information, back to my original question: if the bonding jumper in the transfer switch is to be left intact between the neutral bus and the ground bus, do I need to run a separate ground lead between the meter base and the transfer switch ground bus?

Thanks for the link on bonding. Very good.
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nrp3
Some utilities want a ground in the meter base, some do not. Here, they want one, so the ground rods will end up in the meter base. The water pipe ground I will bring to the service whether its the transfer switch or the panel if there is no transfer switch or disconnect before the panel.
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ceb58
glock19;51177 wrote:
Yes...... the configuration is that the utility company's neutral terminates to a terminal lug in the meter base. From this same terminal lug the neutral wire to the breaker panel (now to the transfer switch) originates. The wire from the ground rod adjacent to the meter base is also physically connected to this same neutral terminal lug.

So, with the above information, back to my original question: if the bonding jumper in the transfer switch is to be left intact between the neutral bus and the ground bus, do I need to run a separate ground lead between the meter base and the transfer switch ground bus?

Thanks for the link on bonding. Very good.


No, only the neutral needs to be ran from the meter base to the ats and leave the bonding jumper. It is from the ats to the generator and the distribution panel that you run 4 wires. You will now need to separate the ground- neutral bond in the distribution panel. The equipment grounding conductors now must be separated from the neutrals and isolated.
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Ziller Tech
glock19;51177 wrote:
Yes...... the configuration is that the utility company's neutral terminates to a terminal lug in the meter base. From this same terminal lug the neutral wire to the breaker panel (now to the transfer switch) originates. The wire from the ground rod adjacent to the meter base is also physically connected to this same neutral terminal lug.

So, with the above information, back to my original question: if the bonding jumper in the transfer switch is to be left intact between the neutral bus and the ground bus, do I need to run a separate ground lead between the meter base and the transfer switch ground bus?

Thanks for the link on bonding. Very good.


If that's the case, then I would assume that the original panel also had a 4-wire feeder and not the normal 3-wire?
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BMerrill
If you only have a 3 wire feed from the meter to the main panel, then chase down the ground from the main panel and see where it goes.
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Brian Baughman
Please note that a single meter socket enclosure is not considered to be service equipment and is not listed as such, unless the meter socket enclosure contains a listed service disconnecting means, typically one to six circuit breakers, but it could be fuses. The neutral is typically bonded to the meter enclosure in every meter socket approved for installation in the USA.

From the meter to the single phase service rated ATS, a set of service entrance conductors are required to be installed. (3 wire feeder) The ATS is listed as suitable for use as service equipment and has to be installed as such, as required by 230.82(5). The grounding electrode conductors have to be terminated in the ATS. From the ATS to any downstream panelboard, a 4 wire feeder is required, and all equipment grounding conductors and neutral conductors have to be isolated from each other.
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ceb58
Brian Baughman;51199 wrote:
Please note that a single meter socket enclosure is not considered to be service equipment and is not listed as such, unless the meter socket enclosure contains a listed service disconnecting means, typically one to six circuit breakers, but it could be fuses. The neutral is typically bonded to the meter enclosure in every meter socket approved for installation in the USA.

From the meter to the single phase service rated ATS, a set of service entrance conductors are required to be installed. (3 wire feeder) The ATS is listed as suitable for use as service equipment and has to be installed as such, as required by 230.82(5). The grounding electrode conductors have to be terminated in the ATS. From the ATS to any downstream panelboard, a 4 wire feeder is required, and all equipment grounding conductors and neutral conductors have to be isolated from each other.


Disagree with the statement about the grounding electrode conductor needing to be terminated in the ATS. His grounding electrode conductor is bonded with the neutral in the meter base. It can stay there. They must be bonded at or BEFORE the first disconnecting means. 250.24 (A)(1)
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Ziller Tech
ceb58;51251 wrote:
Disagree with the statement about the grounding electrode conductor needing to be terminated in the ATS. His grounding electrode conductor is bonded with the neutral in the meter base. It can stay there. They must be bonded at or BEFORE the first disconnecting means. 250.24 (A)(1)


So like my original question, that would mean that you'd need 4-wire from the meter to any downstream panel or disconnect which would be wired like a sub-panel. The meter socket being used as the point of bonding the electrodes isn't a thing here in MI. All of our meter enclosures have the neutral bonded to the can, however usually it's plastic pipe and SE cable feeding in and out so it's really just to open a fuse at the pole should an ungrounded (hot) come loose I'd assume...
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ceb58
Chris Flagg;51259 wrote:
So like my original question, that would mean that you'd need 4-wire from the meter to any downstream panel or disconnect which would be wired like a sub-panel. The meter socket being used as the point of bonding the electrodes isn't a thing here in MI. All of our meter enclosures have the neutral bonded to the can, however usually it's plastic pipe and SE cable feeding in and out so it's really just to open a fuse at the pole should an ungrounded (hot) come loose I'd assume...


No, in this case there would be 3 wire ran to the ATS because that is where the main disconnect/overcurrent devise is. In the ATS is where the neutral will bond to the enclose via a bonding jumper from the buss bar. Now from the ATS there must be 4 wires ( 2- ungrounded ) ( 1- grounded ) and ( 1- equipment grounding ) conductor ran to the distribution panel which now is a sub-panel and to the generator. It is in the sub panel and generator that the grounded ( neutral ) must be isolated from the equipment grounding conductors.
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glock19
As the OP I want to thank everyone who has posted. I've learned a lot and appreciate all the advice. Lots of good info on this forum.
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