grsthegreat
i was thinking of installing an inline surge suppressor for control wires on my generac 22kw unit. i already have a Siemens fs140 on the house, but after replacing a few controllers on clients generators after last years thunderstorms i was thinking about protecting the control circuits.

PSPPRODUCTS offers such a unit  KGSP-1 Generator control wire surge suppressor with 25,000 surge amps.

i was wondering id anyone here has used it before. seems like it might be a good idea.
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78buckshot
I assume it would cover only N1, N2, T1. Can't hurt I suppose.
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grsthegreat
It actually covers all wires including ground....
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restosud
seems like a nice product but at what voltage does it kick in? 
i've seen evo panels get damaged from minor voltage variations
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BillM
I had a whole house surge suppressor and it didn't save me, or my evolution controller when the neighbor's tree got hit.  He's an a couple acres away from me.  I know, it's not the same as this product but it just seems you buy these things for peace of mind, not because they actually will save you.  My 1 cent.
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DanS26
I installed the PSP product on a DIN rail in the ATS.  Here's a pic..... IMG_1660.jpg 
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BillM
Is it the white box or is it that cool thing with the green light?  If it's not the cool thing with the green light, I want it anyway, what is it?  DefCon level indicator?
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DanS26
The PSP surge protector is the device with the green light.  If you look closely you will notice that I did not protect the battery charger circuit at this time.  I did that later.  The green light is the indicator that all connected circuits are protected.  The product appears to be well built and I have not had any problems with it.

The white box on top is a low voltage relay switch.  That device protects the switch mechanism from the overheat/burning effect of low voltage on the utility lines.  My installation is older and needed this protection.  The newer Generac systems I believe have a user/installer control of low voltage sensitivity and thus do not need this device.

You will notice way up in the top left of the picture that I have also installed a Midnite Solar SPD. That device protects the 120/240 AC circuits in this sub-panel. It's mounted externally.  Right below it is a Leviton SPD that is protecting the main distribution panel not shown to the left.

Up in the top right of the picture you see a yellow wire that connects to an external switch that is used to open or close the N1 circuit.  I use that switch to perform load testing of the system.  I do a load test about four times a year.  As you can see the N1 circuit is run through the PSP unit.
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BillM
Thanks, makes sense.  Looks good.  I put a switch in for N1 and N2 separately.  I have the cold weather kit and if that is energized and heating and I trip only N1, or only N2, voltage backfeeds through the cold weather kit and defeats my testing.
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Cobranut
BillM wrote:
Thanks, makes sense.  Looks good.  I put a switch in for N1 and N2 separately.  I have the cold weather kit and if that is energized and heating and I trip only N1, or only N2, voltage backfeeds through the cold weather kit and defeats my testing.


Wow, I'm surprised the controller doesn't see the lack of 240v between the legs and start and transfer.
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westom
Protection is never found in a protector.  Protection only exists when a surge is not anywhere inside.  Protector on control lines does not answer a question that every effective solution always answers:  Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?

That Siemens does not do protection.  It is effective (part of a best solution) IF and Only IF is connects low impedance to what does all protection - single point earth ground.  Either a surge dissipates harmlessly in earth BEFORE entering.  Or a surge is inside hunting for earth ground destructively.  A surge inside is directly traceable to human mistakes.

How to make that protector more effective?  Decrease impedance of a hardwire from that protector to 'single point earth ground'.  Make a bare copper, quarter inch hardwire shorter.  It must be less than 10 feet.  Every foot shorter makes a protector even more effective.

That hardwire cannot have any sharp bends. Bends increase impedance - make protection less. That hardwire cannot be inside any metallic conduit.

Also best routed separated from other non-grounding wires.  These  and that single point ground (not a protector) determine quality of protection during each surge.

It must be single point ground.  Any other incoming wire that connects to any other earth ground makes any household appliances (dishwasher, clock radio, central air, LED & CFL bulbs, refrigerator, recharging electronics, GFCIs, smoke detectors) a potential victim.  An AC utility demonstrates what makes a protector effective in good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) solutions at:
https://www.duke-energy.com/energy-education/power-quality/tech-tips
then select Tech Tip 8.

Best protection for control wires already exists.  Concern is for a rare transient that can overwhelm that best, existing protection.  A rare and destructive transient is never inside if each and every wire in every incoming cable has a low impedance connection to same earthing electrodes - either via a protector or (even better) directly without any protector.

Protector in a sub-panel does not do and does not claim to do effective protection.  It has no low impedance connection to what defines all such protection - that one critical earth ground.  A protector is only a connecting device to what does all protection.  Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?
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DanS26
If I can't clamp all of a spike.....at least I can clamp some of it.  There is very little to be done for a direct strike. SPD's mounted in and out of enclosures and many layers of them can provide a level of protection but not total protection.

And I am coming from personal experience....I have lost thousands of $ of electronics from side strikes coming from both the utility lines and nearby tree strikes.  After installing multi-layer SPD's the losses stopped.  Is it just coincidence? I don't think so.
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grsthegreat
I also used to have issues with blown electrical devices including a fried oven control board ($600.00). Have had no further issues since installing the first, cheaper surge suppressors about 10 years ago. The siemens unit was an upgrade done about 2 years ago.
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westom
DanS26 wrote:
There is very little to be done for a direct strike. SPD's mounted in and out of enclosures and many layers of them can provide a level of protection but not total protection.
Never make conclusions only from observations.  Learned in elementary school science: a conclusion, only from observation, is classic junk science.

Ie Standing water has mosquito larvae days later.  That proves standing water breeds life?  Yes, when only using observation.

Moldy bread has maggots.  That proves mold creates life?  Again, conclusion from observation.

We trace surges by replacing each destroyed semiconductor. In one classic case, plug-in protectors earthed a surge destructively through an entire network of powered off computers.  Adjacent protector simply connected a surge directly into that motherboard - the incoming path.  Then out destructively via an NIC - the outgoing path.

An IEEE brochure demonstrates same.  A protector in one room (therefore not connected less than 10 feet to earthing electrodes) earthed a surge destructively through a TV in an adjacent room.  Since IEEE uses facts, it also includes numbers.  8,000 volts destructively through that TV.

No protector is a layer of protection.  That myth exists due to propaganda, hearsay, wild speculation, subjective reasoning (no numbers), and conclusions made from observation.  A conclusion must also have a valid hypothesis.  The hypothesis (and even experience 100 years ago in facilities that could not have damage) says where hundreds of thousands of joules must harmlessly dissipate.

That protector must either 'block' or 'absorb' a surge.  How does its 2 cm protector part 'block' what three miles of sky cannot?  Never happens.

How many joules does that plug-in protector 'absorb'?  Only thousand.  A surge that tiny does not even damage electronics.  Meanwhile destructive surges (effective protection) is about hundreds of thousands of joules.

Informed consumers spend about $1 per protected appliance for protection from all surges - including direct lightning strikes. If any one appliance needs protection, then every appliance needs that protection.  Which means learning well proven science long before making a conclusion (only from observation).  Hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate outside in earth.  A surge nowhere inside means everything (especially tiny joule plug-in protectors) are protected.

Your telco's switching computer will suffer about 100 surges with each storm.  They also do not foolishly use plug-in protectors that can make damage easier.  How often is your town without phone service for four days while they replace that $million computer? Never. Instead, they also properly earth a 'whole house' solution.

A damaged CO computer would be a major news story.  Because direct lightning strikes (and all other surges) without damage was routine even 100 years ago.  Educated consumers also implement that solution.

'Whole house' protection is so well proven and so effective that damage is traceable to human mistakes.  Where does an investigation start should damage happen?  At the only item that defines each layer of protection:  single point earth ground.  A protector is only as effective as its connection to and quality of earthing electrodes.

What does that "Protector Good" light report?  It never reports a protector good.  It can only report one type of failure that must never happen - catastrophic failure.  Protector parts must disconnect as fast as possible.  That light only reports when a protector was grossly undersized.  Sometimes protector parts do not disconnect fast enough.  Then tiny joule protectors do this:  https://i.redd.it/e34962ah06q11.jpg

What was protected?  A $3 power strip with five cent protector parts costs $25 or $60.  Obscene profits were protected.

Wall receptacle safety ground obviously is not earth ground.  Plug-in protectors have no earth ground.  And may compromise superior protection inside electronics.  As demonstrated in design reviews: plug-in protector connected a surge directly into powered off computers.  Compromised (bypassed) robust protection inside each computer.  Direct strikes without damage are routine all over the world - when one learns from science.  And ignores speculation justified only by observation.

Plenty more facts and numbers from science demonstrate same.
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DanS26
When I installed my grid tied solar system eight years ago I worked with local REMC POCO to make sure it complied with their requirements.  It so happened that their engineer realized a transformer upgrade was needed.  Truck shows up with a nice new shiny 25kva can to replace my old 10kva.  While I'm admiring the new device I notice that it had a module hanging between the split phase outputs. POCO guy says that is an SPD we're putting them on all new residential transformers as a protection for sensitive household electronics.

Next thing I know they're over at the meter on the house and putting an SPD under the meter.  POCO guy says "we just want to protect those expensive inverters hanging over there".

I took it from there and started placing SPDs in the critical areas of my electrical system.  So I have many SPDs Type I, II, and III and both AC and DC.  I know it is not total protection from a direct strike.....but if my POCO is that concerned about my electronics then I should be just as concerned.
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westom
Type 1 and 2 protectors are protection from all surges - including direct strikes.  If a direct lightning strike causes damage, then a human has failed to learn from science and from solutions well proven even 100 years ago.

No protector does protection.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  Because hundreds of thousands of joules must dissipate somewhere - only in earth.

Type 3 protectors do not claim any such protection.  It has no earth ground.  So tiny as to become a human safety threat if connected low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth ground. "Type" is about human protection - not appliance protection.

IEEE Standard defines all this with numbers.  A properly earthed (Type 1 or 2) protector will do 99.5% to 99.9% of the protection.  So it is not perfect.  Then IEEE says:
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Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ... Protection at 99.5% is the practical choice.
Effective protection is about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed.  Protectors are effective only if connected low impedance (ie hardwire has no sharp bends) to single point earth ground.

No protector is a layer of protection.  Each protection layer is only defined by the item that dissipates energy - earth ground electrodes.
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